Sure, we experiment a bit with other bore sizes, but in the end it always comes back to the .30 caliber. Make sure you subscribe toThe Big Game Hunting Podcastand follow The Big Game Hunting Blog onFacebook,Instagram,Twitter, andYouTube. In 1965 Remington took it to the next level with the introduction of the Model 600 Magnum Carbine. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .30 M1 Carbine or .30-30 Winchester rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. The quest for an acceptable .35 has inspired such impotent wastes as the .35 Winchester Self Loader, once labeled a candidate for the title: Worlds Most Useless Center-Fire Rifle Cartridge.. Other firms and individual designers submitted several carbine designs, but most prototypes were either unreliable or grossly off the target weight of five pounds. Having owned several different rifles chambered in .351 WSL and .401 WSL over the years, I can attest to the fact that they are quite good at what they were designed to do: cleanly take North American deer and black bear size game when hunting in close cover where quick shots might be called for. Still, I hope its clear how closely these cartridges stack up. Check out GunBroker. offered the performance level of the .358 Win. The leadership at Winchester realized that a large untapped market existed for the winner of the autoloader race, so they were determined to beat Remington to the punch and release their self-loading rifle first. Do not take the 1907 apart. The Taurus Raging Thirty and AMT AutoMag III were also offered in .30 Carbine.[10]. In a now-famous story, Roy Weatherby launched his wildcatting career after he lost a wounded deer on his first hunt in 1942. Its a decent cartridge, but American hunters just wont flock to it. . . Cartridges are (usually) widely available and dont cost more than the .350 Legend. It has never failed me. Mag. "Winchester Model 07 Self-Loading .351 Caliber: Its Past and Its Future with Modern Brass, Bullets and Powders" (2011) Speckin, Leonard pp 68-70, "Winchester Model 07 Self-Loading .351 Caliber: Its Past and Its Future with Modern Brass, Bullets and Powders" (2011) Speckin, Leonard pp 88-96, ".351 Winchester Self-Loading (.351 WSL, .351 SL)", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=.351_Winchester_Self-Loading&oldid=1149960777, This page was last edited on 15 April 2023, at 14:17. These are a fun gun to have , shoot and collect. The sad truth is that the active list of current .35-caliber rifles and cartridges is tragically short. Perhaps the most notablecharacteristic of the Model 1903 rifle and its later larger brothers was its blowback action. At 300 yds., the .358 Norma impacts only 0.96" lower than the .300 Win. Winchester - Model 70, Target Model, .243 Winchester. 26" Barrel. Oddly, its bullet diameter is truly .351-inch instead of the .358-inch normally associated with rounds such as .35 Whelen, .35 Winchester or .35 Remington. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. Commonly known asthe Model 07, the Model 1907 rifle was also popular for law enforcement use. Posted February 22, 2017 in Ammunition, AR-15, Daily News, Guns & Gear, Other Gear & Gadgets, Rifles by Nathaniel F with 123 CommentsTags: .30 carbine, 7.62, 7.62x33, assault rifle, ballistics, carbine, drop, Education, energy, history, M2, performance, personal defense weapon, rifle, second world war, us carbine m1 .30 cal, velocity, world war 2, world war ii, ww2, wwII, Left to right: .351 WSL, .30 M1 Carbine, .45 ACP, 5.7x28mm SS190, 5.56x45mm M193. These cartridges are remarkably similar from a ballistics standpoint, but the .30-30s slightly better long-distance performance gives it the edge in this category. Sellier & Bellot: 1947 fps. They have almost all abandoned the cartridge. You cant compare it to todays AR 15s. Why the .35 Rem. A standard .30 Carbine ball bullet weighs 110 grains (7.1g); a complete loaded round weighs 195 grains (12.6g) and has a muzzle velocity of 1,990ft/s (610m/s), giving it 967ftlbf (1,311 joules) of energy when fired from the M1 carbine's 18-inch barrel. One would think the 32WSL, 35 WSL, 351 WSL and 401 WSL would still be in use today. Back in the day, shooters were just transitioning from black powder to smokeless powder. And Barnes makes a 200-grain TSX bullet designed for this cartridge that, when handloaded to 2850 f.p.s., allows the .350 Rem. I have all the calibers but short the 401 s and the 22 autos ,can you reload or sell a dox of each. SMOOTH PATINA METAL WITH GOOD WOOD AND A NICE BORE. The .32 Self-Loading fired a 165 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (708 ft-lbs of energy) and the .35 Self-Loading fired a 180 grain bullet at 1,390 feet per second (772 ft-lbs of energy). Most have had an active life in the woods earning their keep, not being just stored away in the closet. Winchester BismuthReview: Your Complete Guide, Best Hunting Rifle Slings Ultimate Guide [2023], 25-06 vs 30-06 Springfield Review & Comparison, 6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Review & Comparison, 11 Reasons The Leupold VX-6HD Is An Outstanding Hunting Scope, 450 Bushmaster vs 45-70 Review & Comparison, 28 Nosler vs 300 Win Mag Review & Comparison, Best 22 Hornet Ammo For Hunting Coyotes, Bobcats, & Other Varmints, 15 Best African Hunting Books For When Youre Dreaming Of Being On Safari[2023], Best 350 Legend Ammo For Hunting Deer, Hogs, Bear, & Other Game, Best 6.8 Western Rifles for Hunting Ultimate Guide [2023]. Still, the .30 Carbine is a round that has taken considerable criticism for its lack of performance, so its worthwhile to take a look at exactly how it does in comparison to other rounds used for the same purpose: Here we see pretty much exactly what wed expect: A round that starts out quite admirably thanks to its goodvelocity and energy, but which tends to underperform at range due to its dumpy ballistic coefficient. hit the market in 1895 paired with Winchester's now . They shot lever actions and bolt actions, and probably didnt understand semi auto rifles. In fact, as Speckin explains, the whole series of Winchester Self-Loaders were designed as smokeless semiautomatic analogs for the saddle carbine role. 350 Legend has more energy than the 351 WSL and less recoil than the 450 Bushmaster. Re: Question for the experts: M1 Carbine vs. Winchester .351, Powered by UBB.threads PHP Forum Software 7.7.5. He became convinced that faster, flatter-shooting cartridges would take game more reliably, and the resulting line of Weatherby Magnum cartridges has been doing just that since he founded Weatherby in 1945. When chambered for cartridges such as the .243 Win., 6 mm Rem., .308 Win. Sadly, I cant find a single major gunmaker chambering this cartridge today. Its spawn, the .351 Winchester Self Loader, fared a little better, but it was never in danger of greatness. But they are so few in number that no general conclusion can be drawn from them. It would have been very similar to todays. But whats good for military purposes isnt always ideal for the deer blind. Most ammunition makers have a 200-grain load, and Remington also has a 150-grain load with a muzzle velocity of 2300 f.p.s. . They include both the AccuBond and the Partition 225-grain bullets with a muzzle velocity of 2800 f.p.s. An M1 carbine design adapted to a rimless .357 Magnum round would be pretty neat but I can't see there being a big market for it today. into the deer woods, and I pine for what could have been. Cold Shower Face And Body Wipes | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal, Review: Taurus G3 Tactical | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal, Video Review: Browning Citori Hunter Grade II Over/Under Shotgun | NRA Family, Video Review: Savage 93 Minimalist Rifle | NRA Family, Video Review: Springfield Armory XD-M Elite 4.5 OSP in 10mm Auto | NRA Family, Make Mine Metal: The Alloy-Frame KelTec P15 | An Official Journal Of The NRA, Preview: Smith & Wesson Performance Center M&P9 M2.0 Competitor | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal, NRA Women | New for 2022: 20-Gauge Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus, Preview: Springfield Armory 1911 DS Double-Stack 9 mm Pistol Lineup | An NRA Shooting Sports Journal, Find More Great NRA Publications Perfect For Every Interest, Discover Everything That The NRA Has To Offer. Grizzly bears have been shot with 357 Mag. Even the military wouldnt use semi or full auto ( hand held) fearing soldiers would shoot too much ammo. Whitetail hunting strategies for the next generation. The 94 Winchester would have been a good place for the .401 s.l. Gun #: 943226118 . Either cartridge would have had better knock down power than 30 Carbine. Our website lists special deals on 9mm Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 45-70 Ammo, 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, 300 Blackout Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 5.56 Ammo, Underwood Ammo, Buffalo Bore Ammo and more special deals on bulk ammo. Foundry Outdoors is your trusted home for buying archery, camping, fishing, hunting, shooting sports, and outdoor gear online. In firearms with a blowback action like the Model 1903, the breech is not locked and depends on a balance between the cartridge pressure characteristics, the heavy breechblock, and a powerful recoil spring for reliable functioning. Ive repaired several successfully. In rifle cartridges, we usually take the safe route and .30-caliber has emerged as the American shooters choice. Why the public abandoned it so quickly is a mystery to me. The .358 Win. were to go head to head with the .25-35 Win.,. This gun has a story. Its too bad that no other companies picked up the 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351WSL and 401 WSL . is on the threatened list, this one is on a path to extinction. Copyright 2023 Big Game Hunting Adventures LLC | All Rights Reserved, 25-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor vs 270: The Results Might Surprise You, 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308 Winchester Debate Settled. the Marlin 336 seems to have a beefier action though and is more easily scoped than the earlier Winchesters. EARLY 3 DIGIT SERIAL NUMBER 904. 1 - Existing barrel making equipment could be made use of. The .351 SL proved popular with police and security forces as the only chambering available in the model 1907, and was used by France in both world wars. A typical 35 Remington factory load (200gr bullet at 2,080fps) has about 5% more energy than a normal 30-30 factory load (170gr bullet at 2,200fps). "the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!". There were over 7million m1carbines made, probably a million left according to estimates world wide. Every competition has a winner, but the truth is, youre unlikely to notice much difference from the whitetail stand. Most used hard and put away wet. This new model featured two new cartridges, the .350 Rem. I'm kind of surprised the .351 wasn't made originally to use .357 bullets, since that bore size had already been established by that point. .30-.30 caliber In excellent used condition. . The .35 Whelen is accurate, hits hard, penetrates deep, shoots flat and recoils mildly. Show Only with Pictures We determine a cartridges shootability by considering its cost, availability, and recoil energy. The .25 Rem., .30 Rem. M44/Carbine; Mini-14 Type; Model 77; RWS Rifles; S Misc Rifles; Saiga Rifles. 26" barrels with F A near flawless vintage Voere Nato Imperial control round feed Mauser bolt action made in Austria. This suggests that in normal times, the .30-30 is easier to find. 98% OVERALL. Another comparison is a .357 Magnum cartridge fired from an 18" rifle barrel, which has a muzzle velocity range from about 1,7182,092ft/s (524638m/s) with energies at 7201,215ftlbf (9761,647J) for a 110gr (7.1g) bullet at the low end and a 125gr (8.1g) bullet on the high end.[11]. These seemingly small differences added up to a significant . Ruger made a few bolt-actions some years back, and Remington made rifles in the 700 Classic line, but they are long gone. Its a similar story at other online outlets. Please try a new zip code and search again. Townsend Whelen praised it as a "good cartridge for deer and similar game in close timber."[3]. Cumpston, Mike, "The .30 Carbine Blackhawk: Ruger's Enduring Dark Horse", "CARTRIDGE AND CHAMBER DRAWINGS CENTERFIRE RIFLE", "Rimless cartridges, Calibres of rifled long centre fire weapons for rimless cartridges", "BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch:: .357 Mag Results", "Liberator's Truimphal March Through An Ecstatic Island", "The .30 Carbine Blackhawk: Ruger's Enduring Dark Horse", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=.30_Carbine&oldid=1152171899, Winchester Repeating Arms Company cartridges, Articles with failed verification from July 2020, Pages using infobox firearm cartridge with unknown parameters, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, This page was last edited on 28 April 2023, at 17:05. However, Winchester experienced great difficulty in the development of their autoloading rifle and the unique calibers designed for it. Upon its release, the Legend was marketed as a light-recoiling cartridge, and the .30-30 is also well-known as a good option for the recoil-sensitive. With six rounds on tap, it makes a good hog-hunting gun as long as heavy shoulder bone is avoided. Copyright 2023 National Rifle Association, Women On Target Instructional Shooting Clinics, Volunteer At The Great American Outdoor Show, Marion P. Hammer Women Of Distinction Award, Women's Wildlife Management / Conservation Scholarship, National Youth Shooting Sports Cooperative Program, Reloading Centerfire Ammunition: Tips For Getting Started, Shooting and Loading the 6.8x43 mm Rem. The only rifles I can find in production are from Nosler, Remington and CVA. Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbine then save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. [6] But for the handloader who has taken the time to replace the recoil spring and buffer in the Winchester Model 1907, the .351 SL can be loaded to its original velocities. But when Winchester chambered the .358 the following year in its unique lever-action, the Model 88, it became a really interesting cartridge. The .356 Win. By experience, they would come to handle it semiautomatically, but it took prolonged battle hardening to bring about this adjustment in the human equation. I wonder if some army brass had a 32-20 lever action rifle and thought that a semi auto rifle in 30 caliber would be good for combat? Save your pennies and hold out for the M1 Carbinethen save your pennies and start stocking away ammo and magazines. Paul explains the differences between the Winchester and Marlin .30-30 lever action rifles.Paul's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=5769301 This video . WOOD HAS A REPAIR AT THE WRIST. The .30 Carbine's relatively straight case and round nose bullet have misled some to believe it was designed for . Other handguns chambered for this cartridge include the Thompson-Center Contender. "[8], U.S. Army specifications for the new cartridge mandated the caliber to be greater than .27, with an effective range of 300 yards or more, and a midrange trajectory ordinate of 18 inches (460mm) or less at 300 yards. Even the Standard gas operated semi auto rifle didnt sell well. I have a 32 sl, 2 x 35 sl,351 and a 401. Duke's newest prize is a fine-condition Winchester Model 1907 .351 WSL. It arrived with three other cartridges designed to compete with Winchesters popular lever-action lineup. The .30 Carbine is so weird in part because its descended from an innovative and influential but little-known family of rounds developed by Winchester in the early 1900s. The .30 Carbine cartridge was developed by Winchester and is basically a rimless .30 caliber ( 7.62 mm) version of the much older .32 Winchester Self-Loading cartridge of 1906 introduced for the Winchester Model 1905 rifle. PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, PISTOL GRIP, SPLINTER FORE END, DOUBLE TRIGGERS, EXTRACTOR. In 1958, the short-lived J. Kimball Arms Co. produced a .30 Carbine caliber pistol that closely resembled a slightly scaled-up High Standard Field King .22 target pistol. When Winchester was asked by Ordnance to develop a round for a new echelon weapon to complement the .45 cal 1911 handgun, their engineers fell back to the basic design of these rounds, adapting the .32 WSL into what was called in development the .30 SL, virtually identical to todays .30 Carbine. Mag.They have almost identical case capacity, but the .358 Norma Mag. Perhaps thats how it should be, the masses rarely embrace true greatness. *I have mentioned before that it is in fact theItalians who claimed the prize of first intermediate caliber to be adopted as standard issue, with their long but still very much intermediate 7.35x51mm round. From a four-inch (102mm) barrel, it launched the standard GI ball projectile at 1,277ft/s (389m/s), producing an average group of 4.18 inches (106mm) at 25 yards (23m); the military decided not to adopt the revolver. It puts down Whitetail deer and wild hogs quite nicely. Loved by gun guys and rejected by the huddled masses, this is perhaps the most underappreciated cartridge of them all. The M1 and M2 carbines continued in service during the Korean War. Federal does not market any of their .350 Legend options as elk cartridges. The .351 WSL cartridge is a up-powered stand-in for the .44-40 or .45 Colt, throwing a 180 grain bullet (softpoint or FMJ) at 1900 fps. The 30 Carbine was necked down to accept a 0.308 diameter, 110-grain full metal jacket (FMJ) bullet. Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. This 170-grain .30-30, for instance, drops 7.7 inches at 200 yards and 26.6 inches at 300 yards. Buy 3, however, or any 3 non gun non ammo items, and shipping is Free on the entire order. Nosler offers the .350 Rem. 80% BLUE, NICE BORE. This listing is for ONE Magazine. Still, the mild working characteristics of the .30 SL allowed the design of a very lightweight and simple gun, in a similar fashion to how the blowback-friendly .32 and .380 ACP rounds allowed the Kel-Tec P-32 and P3AT to be much smaller and lighter than their blowback counterparts. The Model 1910 rifles were also prone to cracking of the forearm. Winchester 1907 I believe was made in 1908 semi automatic 351 caliber has a couple of clips with it. On some collecting sites, prices range around $100.00 box of 50, but earlier pristine condition boxes and with ammo go much higher. Mag. & scope has rust alon WINCHESTER 21 12GA 30 F/M. Perhaps Military Rifle would have been a better term. While the American mainstream wont accept the .35, they are not unloved. Equipped with 10 round magazine to go along with a slightly beefed up forened and buttstock to resist cracking, many Model 1907 semi-auto rifles were acquired by many police departments to serve alongside the Thompson submachine gun in .45 ACP in an effort to give their officers more firepower.
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